Interview with Dr. Melanie Covert, Author of “American Roma: A Modern Investigation of Lived Experiences and Media Portrayals”

I was scrolling around on Facebook one-day and I encountered the following video:


“Well, well,” I quickly said to myself, “this is a book that I must check out!”

I contacted Dr. Covert and asked if, after I read her book, she would like to do an interview on here.  I was glad to hear that she was indeed; found myself even more glad after I read her stellar book.

american roma

Leaving it 5 Stars, I described wrote on Goodreads:

“The degree of research which went into this book, along with Dr. Covert’s meticulous and constant sourcing of the material, is truly beyond impressive. Covert’s exploration of how both non-Romani society as well as some Romani traditions are decidedly not beneficial to women sets ‘American Roma: A Modern Investigation of Lived Experiences and Media Portrayals’ apart from many of the books written by fellow Roma rights activists, who often hesitate to touch on the latter issue with a fifty foot pole. How refreshing to see a more accurate view presented, one not concerned so much about the collective saving of face so much as cold hard facts, regarding the struggle for Romani female equality in the modern era. Also noteworthy to me personally is that, even after working in Roma rights for nearly twenty years, I learned several very important legal tidbits from this book pertaining to the history of the Romani people inside the United States that I had never read before in other books on the subject. I look forward to reading more from Dr. Covert in the future and heartily encourage academics with an interest in the Roma people to read this, a non-fiction book actually written by a Roma woman with a PhD.”

Melanie Covert Picture

1.      Hello, Dr. Covert. Could you please introduce yourself, including a brief description of your familial background and your professional resume?

I always cringe at introductions; it feels like the first day of school all over again and I am never quite sure I am giving out the right information. I hope to touch on all the areas your readers are curious about. 

I was born and raised in Georgia. I come from a Romanichal family on my mother’s side. My father, who was not Roma, died before I was born and I did not meet his family until my late 20’s (I am 33 now). I have three brothers. My mother raised us primarily on her own. I grew up around my mother’s family probably until my late elementary school years when our frequent moves became even more frequent and I have had intermittent contact with my extended family since that time. I have been married for 13 years to someone who is not Roma; we do not have kids, but we have lots of pets. I started working around the age of 14 and have worked since then. Coming from a single parent home where my mom was without a college education or strong work experience, it was instilled pretty early on that I needed to get an education and make a way for myself. I received my Bachelor’s degree from Kennesaw State University in 2008, in Psychology with a minor in history. In 2011, I graduated with my M.S. in Clinical Counseling Psychology which enabled me to become a Licensed Professional Counselor. And in 2016, I graduated from Georgia State University with my Ph.D. in Sociology, where I focused on race and urban studies. Since junior year of undergrad, I have been working for various universities. I have now been in private practice since 2012 and teaching at the university level since 2012. I am currently an assistant professor of Psychology at Brenau University. Here I teach intro sociology, cultural basis of behavior and other courses that help train future counselors. Lastly, I head up a young adult college and career group at my local church, I play three instruments and am very invested in my Netflix account. 

2.      Your book’s online price is listed at over $100.  When you wrote it, was your principal audience university academics, as the price suggests?  If so, how have they and fellow literary professionals reacted to your work?

Sadly, the author has no control over the price or audience. The answer to the question is: yes, the primary intended audience is academics, however that audience was chosen by the publisher. It was my idea to try to bring the text to a more widespread audience because I believe it has the potential to be a useful book for people outside of Academia as well. The cost makes that somewhat prohibitive, sadly, but I believe a paperback is potentially in the works. Also, people can request their local library or college library purchase the book for them. Over 50 universities world-wide have purchased the text for their collections, which is very encouraging! I have gotten some positive feedback from other academics and had a very promising review come out this year in the Journal of Romani Studies. I have also adopted its use in one of the courses on campus and the response from students has been so positive. It’s brand new territory for them in terms of racial and ethnic discourse. Otherwise, I would say the general reception has been… quiet?

3.      Your book makes it obvious that, first and foremost, you are a diligent researcher.  Exactly how long did it take to compile the data which fleshed out “American Roma: A Modern Investigation of Lived Experiences and Media Portrayals?”  What challenges were most difficult regarding organization of the facts that you found?

Thank you for the compliment! I was trained as a scientific, quantitative researcher so this was a shift for me in terms of the type of research but I do feel I brought that training into this work with me. It took about 4-5 years (wow, was it really that long!?) to collect all the information I found. That’s hundreds upon hundreds of hours. What many people outside academia might not realize is that every paragraph in a research paper written can represent days of research, compiling studies and ruling out studies. One sentence I wrote may represent a week’s worth of digging into literature and historical data to come to that one conclusion. The biggest challenge was, of course, availability of data. A lot of data exists on Roma world-wide… but in America? You are looking at texts that are decades old. I was combing archival newspapers at places like the library of congress. I cited unpublished graduate thesis and dissertation buried in various online databases. I watched entire seasons of shows just to analyze a 10 minute scene in which Roma are mentioned or discussed. I wasn’t quite starting from square one but maybe, I don’t know, square 3 in terms of compiling data, especially modern data. Every piece of data I came upon was often only a scrap and I had to piece those scraps together to make a cohesive picture. 

4.      There are other non-fiction books about the Romani people available online, a few of which you reference in “American Roma.”  To your mind, what sets your book apart from the ones written by your Romani rights colleagues?

There are other books available out there and I believe each serves an important place in the overall discourse. What I believe is unique to my book is that it is what is says it is: a MODERN investigation. 1. It’s current and 2. It’s a modern look at what it means to be Roma. Many of the older texts are a look at specific enclaves of Roma in one part of America. My text covers many places, many people and doesn’t define Roma by one set of practices, DNA, or geographical location. It doesn’t pigeon-hole Roma in to one way of life. We aren’t a stereotype and I believe the book highlights that.  Lastly, the book allows these individuals and sources to speak for themselves. The book is a platform for Roma narrative and history to stand on its own. 

5.      Your book explores many aspects of Romani history—(hate crimes, genocide, segregation, forced sterilization, slavery)—which are very upsetting to read.  Many don’t realize that writing about these topics can also have a profound effect upon the author.  How did you power through it and how did you decompress from the more stressful moments?

What an insightful question! It was tough to write the text. One of the chapters of the book starts with a news article about a Roma man murdered in front of his own kids by a police officer. That article alone caused me to take a break for a few days. Everything you listed and more left me with, I don’t know… almost an ancestral feeling of pain. It hurt to hear it. The interviews would impact me a lot as well. I make it clear in my introduction that some of the stories shared are about individuals related to me. One of the quotes in the book was about my grandmother, whom I sadly was not able to know for very long. The quote talks about how the way she was treated and the way her parents were run out of town for being fortune tellers was really hard on her because she wanted to assimilate, she wanted to fit in and be accepted in school. That quote would come up while I was sitting in traffic or at my desk. I would often take weeks off from writing when the information got to be too much. The encouragement to go on came from the idea that I was doing what was within my power to positively affect the community; leveraging my position in academia to give a platform for these narratives. It’s not everything but it’s something. The knowledge that these are narratives that deserved to be shared was also a factor that motivated me to continue. Decompression for me means spending time with people while we eat food, laugh, share ideas and stories, and watch tv together. A lot of terrible things exist in the world (I know this first hand from my role as a therapist) but there is good as well. Pausing for a moment to see it was a good way to decompress but even in doing so I had to recognize the privilege of doing so. Being able to “take a break” from being confronted with so much pain is not a privilege that all Roma world-wide have. 

6.      “American Roma” explores in depth many anti-Romani laws which either passed or were almost passed in the United States.  Would you share a few of these with us?  In your own words, what impact do these laws have on the psyche of American Roma today?

The law most groundbreaking and eye opening for me in the book is discussed in the beginning of Chapter Three. The civil rights act of 1866 not only discussed the establishment of birthright citizenship for Black Americans by name, it did so for Roma under the more pejorative term “gypsy.” I discuss how President Johnson rejected the Civil Rights Act sending a letter to congress expressing his negative views of what they were attempting to do. This was a landmark piece of legislation for Black Americans, one that has historically underscored the role they filled in Amreican society, how they were viewed, how they were valued. To understand the need for this piece of legislation at that time and to understand that the President of the United States was against it is to understand that those included in this act, Black Americans, Roma and other minorities mentioned by name, were not on equal footing with mainstream society.  I believe Roma inclusion in this historical act is largely undiscussed and thus it is likely that the weight of this act in and of itself has not necessarily impacted the psyche of American Roma. The prejudice motivating the need for this act however and the pejorative social construction of who the Roma are have had a significant impact  on the historical psyche and everyday lived experiences. I believe also that the psychological impact comes when one internalizes the implications of this law. Without it, my great-grandparents, my grandparents, my mom, myself, would have no right to citizenship  by birth simply because we are Roma. When it becomes personal, it becomes serious.  The civil rights act of 1866  is a crucial act and historical moment for American Roma that helped to form my understanding of Roma lives from a legal and political paradigm from that point forward. 
A few other notable laws in the text included in chapter six discuss historical laws passed in states such as North Carolina and New York  that created both a traveling tax and license fee to conduct their business. Roma, cited as “gypsies,” were the only group identified specifically by their ethnicity. These types of laws directly impacted many Roma in their ability to make a living and, even more detrimental, created an “us versus them” dynamic. The outcome of this dynamic was prejudice, targeting by law enforcement, sometimes violence. For a Roma family, this may incite fear and a protectiveness against law enforcement or government that would be passed down generationally. Speaking as a mental health professional, this absolutely has a direct impact on the mental and emotional well being of the individual. Being rejected by your home state, your home country to the extent that laws are being passed directly targeting your ability to provide for your family or secure a place of residence is direct predictor of both individual trauma and intergenerational trauma. Laws such as these existed throughout the United States in the 1900’s until many were overturned as unconstitutional, though some remain on the books to this day.

7.      Your book focuses a great deal on the marginalization of Romani women, both within the non-Romani world as well as within the Romani community itself.  You seemed to emphasize higher education as one of the most pivotal means to escape this.  Would you care to elaborate?

I’m going to come right out and say I am a feminist. That carries a lot of meanings, but for me that means I am committed to lifting up the women around me any way I can. In doing a lot of my initial research, I was seeing many Roma women and Roma women’s needs and causes being pushed out of the bigger discourse. I read many articles by Roma women who were being confronted with the choice to be feminist or Roma but not both. I didn’t like that. My initial research actually started with women only. It wasn’t until the publisher encouraged me to include men that I expanded my study. I only examined a few dozen narratives so we can’t call my findings conclusive but I certainly saw a pattern of higher education as a vehicle for change in the lives of Roma women. Whether it was among my respondents or in other studies I read, higher education not only equipped these women to pursue careers that would otherwise be closed to them, but it also gave them exposure to new ideas, gave them the language and platform to advocate for themselves and exposed them to other Roma women pursuing lives outside of traditional roles. For many of these women, traditional roles, whether it be the freedom to work, expectations for marriage or individual rights, was a marginalizing or limiting place. Those are their words, not mine. Higher education allowed them to leave behind those limitations while, for some, holding on to their Roma identity and, for others, creating new identities for themselves. 

8.      For “American Roma,” you interviewed nearly two dozen subjects about their life experiences.  Was it difficult to find volunteers for this or was it your experience that American Roma want their voices to be heard?

It was very challenging to get participants most often because people stated that talking about their identity or lives as Roma was not something that was done. Some that turned me down have since come back and said they wished they had participated because if the older Roma aren’t willing to tell their stories then there will be a lot that is lost. Even those willing to participate were leery about speaking out about their experiences. I had to go through a vetting process with each one, talk about my background and family before they would agree to participate. Many confirmed multiple times that they would remain anonymous because they were afraid of how they would be perceived within and outside the Roma community. I believe Roma do want their voices to be heard but they want control over how its heard. Given a history of misrepresentation, this is understandable but I also think there is an air of mistrust that could discourage some Roma from joining the larger discourse for fear of repercussion. Just since last year I’ve become aware of many more rising scholars in the US who are focusing on Roma and my hope is that more and more Roma will engage with researchers. The more participants, the more power, that’s a statistical fact but I think it’s a practical reality. We need more scholarship on American Roma to raise Roma visibility in American academic circles. This cannot be done without Roma participation. 

9.   There has been some backlash from reviewers regarding your book, including the allegation that you are lying about being Romani and that the Roma you interviewed are similarly lying about their heritage.  What effect has this had on you?  Do you believe that the naysayers are sincere, actually believing what they claim, or do you interpret this is a tactic used to silence Roma women who speak out on issue of gender inequality?

This absolutely had a significant impact on me. On one hand, as I have already said, I get the mistrust. On the other, at a personal level, this was like a gut punch. I was very clear in my book’s preface my background and connection with the Roma community. I made it clear that I was not trying to claim to be more connected or informed than I was but I also made it clear that this is a part of my identity genetically, ethnically and, to a very minor degree, culturally. I had some fears even before the book came out that there would be this type of criticism. My research brought me face to face with a significant amount of gatekeeping. In fact, I talk about the lack of a singular definition of being “Roma” in the book. It’s hard to know where you stand when there is no standard measuring stick, but everyone claims there is.  But I certainly was not ready for the tone of my critics and it made me retreat for a time as I processed feeling rejected by the community that I was seeking to reconnect with. The criticism took a very personal tone from the color of my hair to accusations about my motivations etc. After a few short weeks of that, I retreated from public discourse about the book because the focus was on me and not the text. It’s a good piece of scholarship and a book that any writer would be proud of. I am proud that it is among the books out there that may inform someone outside the community about Roma or allow someone like me to learn more about their history and heritage. 

I can’t judge the sincerity of the naysayers. I can say that those I interviewed are very sincere in their commitment to the community and have done much to advocate on its behalf. I guess it never occurred to me that someone would want to silence a Roma woman speaking about equality and yet I know this does occur within the community and certainly in policy and academic circles.  I think I may be very naive in that regard.

I still don’t understand why anyone would lie about being Roma. Historically, many people have lied to protect themselves against discrimination by saying they are NOT Roma. Where is the benefit in saying you ARE when you aren’t? I don’t get it. Since processing this backlash, I have spoken with a few Roma scholars and they have all had the same thing to tell me. They can’t control how people see them so they choose to focus on the important work they are doing, speaking out on marginalization rather than wasting time engaging with the naysayers. Their names and work are way more well known than mine so it was encouraging to know they had dealt with similar criticisms but they persist. 

10.   What future do you foresee for other Romani authors, such as yourself, regarding self-defining non-fiction literature, as opposed to how Romani culture and history has traditionally mainly been written by outsiders about us?

I hope a very bright future. I hope more and more books come out and that it becomes a widely recognized genre of its own. I hope people within the community will encourage authors and other creative producers to get their work out there. As more representation comes from within the community, I believe those who have been disconnected from their roots will be able to connect with it in a meaningful way and I believe the picture of Roma that is perceived by those on the outside will become more and more accurate. The goal is representation controlled by Roma but, as I discuss in my book, Roma are made up of a very diverse group of people and I hope to see that diversity celebrated, accepted and become a recognized part of what it means to be Roma. 

11.   What’s next on your literary horizon?  Do you intend to write more books on the subjects of Romani racial inequality, gender inequality, and general history?

I am actually currently working on a new book. While in the same vein, I will be shifting my focus to looking at housing, education, poverty and their connection to things like health and mental health. I will be collecting interviews again and my goal is to hopefully have some Roma representation in the book by including Roma authors and studies in my discussion and hopefully have some Roma participants but it will not be my primary focus as it was in my first book. My goal is to continue to make Roma representation a normative part of academic inquiry. We’re out here so let’s make Roma representation more than a niche thing; bring it in to mainstream attention as much as possible.

Dr. Covert can be reached at:

Melanie Covert, Phd, LPC, CPCS
Assistant Professor
Brenau University – Department of Psychology
Ivester College of Health Sciences
3139 Campus Drive, 212, Norcross GA

Seeking International Romani Female Writers

Romani Flag

Roughly a year and a half ago, I quietly put the word out that I was looking for Romani female authors who would contribute to the first annual Romani Feminist Anthology.

What is the purpose of this anthology?  To give Romani women from across the globe, from different backgrounds, the opportunity to have their struggle for racial and gender equality heard.  But, more than that, to use their literary superpowers to help those in our community who cannot articulate their hardships.

Writers will not be paid for their entries because all the book’s profits–yes, 100%–will be going to a Romani charity.  The authors selected will each have a vote as to which charity will be the recipient of the funding.

Stories must be a minimum of 1000 words and a rough maximum of 6000.

Those currently contributing to the anthology are actress Mihaela Dragan, novelist Glenda Bailey-Mershon, blogger Jessica Reidy, myself, Diana Norma Szokolyai, and Damaris Solis.

With any annual project, the first one is always the hardest to get off the ground and the time has come to cast a wider net.

Romani sisters, will you write to make the world a better place?

Romani brothers and allies, do you know someone who would be interested?

Please message me here on my blog or at:

Interview with Author Kelli Pizarro

Some years back, I published a book about a 19th century Romani female slave in Eastern Europe.

At the time it came out, it was, to the best of my knowledge, the only work of historical fiction on this subject published in the English language.  Some assumed that I would feel proud for breaking the glass ceiling, but, in actuality, I only wondered, when millions of Romani women, over the course of centuries and in so many different countries, were subjected to slavery…why weren’t other historical fiction writers tackling this issue?  Wasn’t it dramatic enough?  Heart-breaking enough?  Interesting enough?  Why were authors continuously ignoring it?

Last week, I came across the recently-published book “The Roma Road: A Gypsy Tale” by Kelli Pizarro and I found that the subject material was finally, at such long last, being addressed by someone else.  The time period, country, and circumstances were different in many ways from my own book, but, as I read Pizarro’s work, I found myself continuously thinking that, if my slave character sat down to dinner with hers, the two would likely get on quite well.

Pizarro’s book starts during a largely-ignored period of ethnic cleansing, enforced by royal decree, in the UK.  Though I am not Romanichal, as the majority of Romani people in the UK are, I was very familiar with the research used in this book due to the fact that I do have UK roots and also because I have previously written a screenplay specifically about the genocide inflicted upon the Romanichal population.  As a result of my own extensive research, while reading, I repeatedly wondered just how much this non-Romani author was going to portray accurately.

I hoped for the best.  I admit, after seeing so many other authors portray UK Roma in ridiculous fashions, I expected the worst.  I was stunningly and very pleasantly surprised.

I will first mention some obvious sore spots….  There were several things in the book which do fit the “Gypsy” stereotype.  There is fortune-telling, theft, spell-casting, and a seductive Romani dancer….  That said, what sets Pizarro’s book very apart from when these things are usually portrayed is that she consistently presents them in the context of force and violence.

As the Romani characters are continually, from the first to the last page, aware that they may be, at any point, grabbed and either killed or shipped overseas if the White population recognizes them for what they ethnically are, they are driven repeatedly to desperate actions which do not appeal to them, but there is no way that they can avoid.  Does the Romani man want to steal food?  No.  He’d rather have a regular job, but that’s not on the docket when you can be hung for coming from the wrong race.

Romani women have never fit into the housewife mold at times like these.  In order to put food on the table, an untold multitude have told fortunes.  To fundamentalist Europe, fortune-telling was during the Middle Ages, Renaissance, and, even by some people today, considered sacrilege.  To our culture, ever since we left India, however it was not regarded as evil—instead, quite harmless.  And if this harmless act could feed your children in a time when regular employment was not an option, all the better.  How many Romani palm-readers wound up being branded as witches and subsequently murdered by European mobs?  Impossible to say, but no doubt the numbers ran into the thousands.  Consequently, to this day, while some Romani women in times of financial strain do on the side read a fortune here or there, there remains a great deal of anxiousness when Gadje (non-Romani) authors point this out.  But Pizarro handles an authentic trade tastefully—showcasing it accurately a means of survival during bad times.

The spell-casting, to my mind, was the most uncomfortable bit in the book, but even that had to be put into the context of it taking place during the 16th century—the time when tomatoes where considered poisonous and leeches were placed inside a person’s nose to stop it from bleeding.  The use of and total belief in magic, at that point, was in no way unique to any ethnic group.  Had Pizarro’s book been set in the modern day, with Romani spell-casters, I would indeed agree that she was endorsing a stereotype.  But, in all honesty, to have characters living four hundred years ago in your book that lack superstition is hardly realistic.

As to the last issue…the beautiful, sexy, “exotic” Romani dancer…here, I found the stereotype which has plagued Romani women worldwide put in the most truthful light.  What is this girl—the one who all the White men are ogling and treating like a whore?  She’s a victim of human trafficking—not even a woman, but just a teenage girl.  She has no choice but to do what she does.  When she tries to fight back, she is threatened with physical and sexual violence.  When she continues to fight, those threats are made good on.  Again and again, she is manipulated, humiliated, degraded, and violated without any legal recourse for the sole reason that she is Romani.  To everyone around her, she is an object; a means for them to earn money.  And, on the inside, she is desperately searching for some way to assert her status as a human being; as a child of God.

Does the book have some linguistic and cultural hiccups?  Yes, it does.  But overall, the fact that it highlights an enslavement and genocide which most Gadje readers will have had no previous knowledge ever took place at all is far more important than these minor errors.  The fact that the myth of the hypersexualized Gypsy dancer is shown in reality to be an exploited, terrorized Romani victim of a racist sexual predator…to me, as a Romani woman, leaves me with a feeling of hope that perhaps the time has come when this issue of ethnic gender violence will start finally being portrayed with accuracy in the historical fiction market.  The plight of our Romani ancestresses, of Romani women in general, deserves its fair amount of time on the page of modern fiction….

Pizarro’s readers, I doubt very strongly, will walk away from her book without a greater understanding of some of the horror inflicted upon our people.

Perhaps, to some, that is only my hope or naiveté.

Pizarro’s reviews will reveal whether or not I am right.

In the meantime, I will dissolve from review to interview and allow the audience to hear from her, in her own words, what she aimed to achieve by writing about the slavery of a Romani teen.


G: Welcome, Kelli.  Please introduce yourself to the readers and give a brief summary of your past writing projects.

K: I am a thirty-something Christian fiction author, homeschooling mother of three, wife, and lover of warm drinks, and good books.

My books have all been set in England, due to the rich history—both the good and the bad—and the fact that both sides of my family come from there several generations back. It helps me to connect to a place, knowing that at the time my stories were set, I had family living in the same area that possibly could have taken part in whatever my books entailed, were they not fictional stories! I hope to one day travel to the places I have written about and see them modern day.

The last book I have completed is the topic of discussion today, The Roma Road: A Gypsy Tale.

G: Now let’s start off with the $64,000 dollar question: you are not Romani and you previously had no contact with the Roma, so what prompted you to write a book dedicated to showcasing the abuse of the UK Romani people?

K: This is an interesting question with a long(ish) answer. After finishing Awaiting the Reign, I was at a pause in my writing. A time of recuperation, if you will. I was up one night doing personal research on the history of the circus when I got the idea for a book. It began as a story of a circus performer who falls in love with the ringleader but is abused and eventually makes her escape. Many hours of research brought me to the question: What was the pre-circus like? Traveling freak shows with grotesque displays were popular in different areas and I decided to start from there. I wanted my protagonist to be a woman who was held against her will and mistreated, but also to be on display for something other than a physical abnormality, setting her apart. I found some sources stating that oftentimes, these freak shows had private tents for gentlemen to enter for a fee. This tent usually held an exotic dancer, and also items such as pickled fetuses and other things that women and children wouldn’t be allowed to look upon. My next question was: Who, during the 16th century in this area, would be a people that would be enslaved without question from the government? I found that slavery was quite popular in that time and location, but my next finding was a shock to me. The “gypsies” were often enslaved, and in many places forced to do manual labor, prostitution, or be shipped off. I, like many others, knew nothing of the history of the Roma people. I’m going to be honest with you—I didn’t even know that “gypsy” was a derogatory term! So there began my research into the history of the Romanichal people. I read countless articles, watched YouTube videos detailing the Romani Holocaust, and read papers written by members of the Roma community. I was heartbroken to learn that not only were these people persecuted terribly, in many ways they still are, and many people have no knowledge about any of this! I began to pray for the Roma community and to ask God to show me how I can craft a story that will expose how evil the freak shows were, how the Roma were lumped into the same category as disfigured people or other enslaved races, and show the gospel finding its way to my characters. My story unfolded from there.

G: The word “Gypsy” barely occurs in your book at all, yet it is in the book’s subtitle.  Can you explain why?

K: There are terms that are “obviously” racial to some people, and to others they are just informal slurs. The term “Gypsy” was one I was guilty of using, and I was surprised to find that it caused quite a stir in the Roma community. Especially since many Roma people use the word themselves. But after researching, I found that the word’s use is similar to calling Native Americans “Indians.” It is a title based on a misconception and ignorance, but should have been dropped after the true origin of the people was recognized. It is a term that has been watered down by those who aren’t Roma and I do feel that most (now day) mean no disrespect when using it. It is used in ignorance. Due to this, many people interested in that culture search for movies, shows, books, and other points of interest using that as the search term. The key word. And if I had just written “The Roma Road” as the title, I guarantee many, many people would have no clue that this was a book about “Gypsies,” and would have passed it by—and missed an opportunity to learn something. The opportunity to hopefully come to the conclusion that they no longer wished to refer to the Roma people in that way. They could use the words “Roma” and “Romani” instead, and feel confident in doing so. I never intended the use of the word in the title to arouse anger from the Roma community. Conversely, I hoped any Roma who might come upon my book would read it and appreciate someone having had the strong desire to shine light on the oppression of the people. Unfortunately, it has been a split crowd. Having had two members of the Roma community read and offer me feedback on the book, I found that one was determined to be opposed to the book because it contained “stereotypes”, while the other had an appreciation for my delicate telling of the culture at the time, and my disclaimers stating that the people do not all thieve, work witchcraft, or live godless lives.

G: Given that you are portraying a culture not your own, I found the degree of authenticity quite striking.  How long did it take you to research the material to achieve this and, afterward the studying process, how long did the book actually take to write?

K: Had I known I was to be asked this, I would have paid closer attention, but sadly, I have no sure answer for you. As for the research, it was a process of long (up to 8 hour) nights of study, five days a week, over a period of several months. When I say it was a full time job that did not pay, I am being truthful. Of course, the reward of knowledge was all the pay I desired.

The first few months of this work were strictly research. The other months were study done in between chapters, my aim being to take each scene written and dissect it for historical accuracy as much as possible. This is just the way I write. I research before, during, and after a book. I have an author friend aid me in my studies and research, then have her pick my books apart for errors.

G: “The Roma Road: A Gypsy Tale” centers on a 16th century Romani girl being subjected to human trafficking. Some readers unfamiliar with modern Romani history likely have the impression that the topics you portrayed are long-dead issues.  However, in many countries throughout Europe, the rates of human trafficking are quite disproportionately in favor of Roma, rather than Whites, being forced into modern slavery.  Did this current-day problem have anything to do with your decision to write a book on Romani slavery’s history?

K: No, it did not. I had no knowledge of these facts until I was well into writing my story. It was something that I was saddened to learn and hoped that many would read my book, learn of this history, then take up my suggestion to further their own research and find that many of these issues are still current.

G: Generally, when Romani slavery is discussed, those who are aware that it took place at all focus on Eastern Europe—Romania, in particular.  What made you decide to highlight the history of persecution, ethnic cleansing, and enslavement of the Roma in the UK instead?

K: My book started out as a story with the background stage as the pre-circus. Much of that originated in the UK. A few years ago I traced my ancestry back to England and found that, on both sides of my family, my relatives lived for many generations in certain areas. I became fascinated with the culture and history, and like writing books that are set in the times when my family may have lived there. All of these are reasons that I chose the Roma of the UK for my story.

G: Often, when UK slavery is referenced, it is through euphemisms such as “indentured servitude.”  At no point in the book do you once use any of these regular watered-down terms.  You say, every time, “slave.”  Was it especially important to you, as an author, to ensure that the audience understood that there really is no other way to adequately describe the situation?

K: Indentured servitude is a glamorous way of saying, “a person with no freedom who did unpaid labor”. That is a slave, plain and simple. As in every time in history where there have been oppressed people, there have been those who wished they were not treated so, but those were not the majority and the result was catastrophic for the Roma people. It was very important to me that my readers grasp what it meant to be a Roma slave, and that they don’t have any qualms about calling it for what it was after reading this book.

G: Repeatedly throughout the book, you reference how, when Roma are caught, if they are not killed, they are frequently put on ships and sent away.  Was this data included to help American audiences understand that a significant portion of modern Romani-Americans, particularly in Southern States like your native Texas, descend from these brutal UK slave raids?

K: Yes. If the readers learned that the Roma people were shipped off, they would conclude on their own that they began lives in other places. This included the US, and the population here today came from much of this slave trafficking. The land of the free has not always been free for all and that is important to know as well.

G: Most mainstream individuals consider Queen Elizabeth I a great monarch, but you highlight very clearly that it was during her reign, on her personal orders, that anti-Romani ethnic cleansing was going on throughout the county she ruled.  How important is it, do you think, that this fact regarding her time in power be brought to light for modern audiences, given that today’s UK Roma still endure a great deal of bigotry?

K: History belongs to no one in particular, which means it is shared. Therefore, it is crucial to understand the foundation that said bigotry was built on, and such policies at the time poured quite a firm foundation. What a pity, too. The opportunity to glean from a beautiful culture was missed, and was a loss for the UK. They stole what they wished from the Roma people, yet accused them of being the thieves. But just as I have stated previously, it is not the entire UK population that feels so strongly against the Roma people, and if one is to be fair, and careful not to mislead, they must offer disclaimers. Here is mine: I am in no position to speak for anyone but myself. I have seen injustice served, and have attempted to shine a light on it. Those who wish to search out truths should do so.

G: You deal with the topic of racially-based ongoing rape very poignantly, yet at the same time, with tremendous subtlety.  Was this subtlety on your part designed to conform to the standards of the book’s genre, (Christian historical fiction,) or out of respect to Romani culture’s traditions regarding modesty as pertains to both sex and sexual violence?

K: Both. The Christian fiction genre in general is one that I find is best written with a careful pen. I find that my own writing of sexual sins is more blunt and detailed than many Christian authors, so for you to say that it is subtly and poignantly written, I take that as both compliment and a great relief. I have done my best to, while exposing wrongs, not do further harm to the hearts of the Roma people, and have attempted to keep my readers from shutting the book and saying, “This is too much! I can’t go on!”

G: For centuries untold, many Romani children, like your main character, Nadya, have been lied to by their family members, who deny Romani ethnic origins as a means of survival.  These children, who faced the choice of being forced to be “White” or die, grow up with a loss of Romanes language, cultural traditions, and are frequently subjected to varying degrees of ostrazation by those traditionally raised.  How do you hope that books like yours might influence this unfortunate vicious cycle, both for the non-Romani and Romani communities alike?

K: Until you have some level of love for a person, it is difficult to have a sympathy deep enough to provoke change. Books like mine make the non-Romani people form a bond with Romani characters. They see them as who they are—people, with strengths, weaknesses, and souls. They grow to love them, to feel for them. Then, they can no longer turn a blind eye when they see such things still happening. These books are not the entire fire with which you burn up racial profiling and injustices. However, they very well can be the tinder.

G: People of mixed Romani-Gadje origin often face double discrimination from both ethnicities, eventually are pressured by both to choose only one heritage which they will acknowledge.  What made you decide that your main character should be of mixed origin, rather than full-blood?

K: Honestly, it just fit. My character needed to see both sides. She had a white father who loved Roma. She had a white grandfather who kidnapped and enslaved Roma. She was raised around Roma who loved her white father and her. She also saw the conflict between her anti-Roma stepmother and the Roma that lived on her land. She saw every facet of this conflict before she was ten years old and enslaved, and then suffered the trauma of being discriminated against herself. How could she not be open-minded and open-hearted to both sides? I believe this is the way to eliminate discrimination against any ethnicity: to learn why they feel the way they do and do offer healing to any who need it. But then also to not place blame on the parties who do not condone the discrimination. Many people are descendants of slave owners and are hated for their heritage. They didn’t ask to descend from such people. It is their own values and choices that should be judged.

Nadya experienced it all, and by the time she was an adult, she desperately needed healing.

G: I found your principal villain to be very well written.  In particular, the emotional complexity he deals with regarding his status as a master was refreshing.  Books typically portray the slave masters as having no belief whatsoever that their actions are immoral, but your villain seems to understand that the system, however beneficial to him personally, is ethically flawed.  What was your inspiration for his internal conundrum?

K: We are born with a conscience. We can’t deny that. Some villains are able to numb theirs completely, and others just deal with it by putting it off. For this character to be as emotionally unstable as he was, he needed to have a conflict within him. He needed to struggle and to attempt to gain control of his situations by pride and power. And it just worked best that he refused to allow himself to feel remorse though he knew it was due.

G: As befits the 16th century setting, your book features some very old-school Romani traditions and beliefs which many modern Roma do not practice/ believe.  Was it difficult to portray time period-accurate things, like the casting of love spells, while knowing that many non-Roma believe this is still par for the course among Roma people today?

K: It was not difficult because, like I said, history is shared. If I can, being no expert on the people, take some time in study and come to the conclusion that things have changed in most cultures over the last 500 years, then anyone can. If someone wants to believe that the Roma people are tarot-card reading, pick-pocketing, traveling musicians, they will. There is nothing that can be done for willful ignorance. The only way I can think to change the minds of people who won’t do their own research is to lure them in with a nicely-woven tale, include the things they “think a Gypsy” is, but show them that these stereotypes were era-specific, family-specific, and even specific to the individual. Disclaimers and clarifying statements then attempt to hit the mark and clear up any confusion that may still remain. The problem isn’t so much that the non-Romani community will read it and say, “See! There’s a palm reader!” or, “See! He stole a duck from a farmer!” Any character can do those things. It is that, after reading the book they will say, “I would have stolen to feed my family, too…” or “The white people who were bold enough to ask for one, seemed to enjoy a good fortune telling…” Even, “I hate that they were oppressed for being so different, when their culture was truly beautiful.” Those are the things that the non-Romani will walk away with. Sadly, due to the subject matter being sensitive, the Roma community may have difficulty seeing it as a “good book” that “does their people any good service.” But the book’s audience wasn’t specific to the Roma community. Instead, it was aimed at those who aren’t familiar with the culture. Each historical fiction book tends to have a message it wishes to convey, and an audience it is speaking to. This books audience is the non-Roma crowd, and the message is, “Do you know of Gypsies, or of the Roma people?”

G: The biggest flaw that I found in the book was that your racist characters referenced “dirty Roma,” “filthy Roma,” et cetera.  To my mind the more accurate phrasing from a racist would be “dirty Gypsy,” “filthy Gyppo,” and other established anti-Romani slurs.  How do you react to this particular criticism of your villains being too educated and politically correct?

K: When given permission by a Roma to use such phrases, I was more confident in going back and using them more freely from the lips of the discriminating characters. I was attempting to be extra sensitive to the Roma community, but after a better understanding, I believe it was better for me to use the slurs in order to have the full effect: showing how hurtful such racist phrases are.

G: Your book’s genre is Christian historical fiction.  Across Europe during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, there were religious institutions from many different sects which exploited, kidnapped, discriminated against, enslaved, or even killed Roma.  The main non-Romani religious figure that you portray does not partake in such behavior as, certainly, many decent clergy did not.  What did you do to attempt to find literary balance and middle ground so that your main character, Nadya, can find peace and healing through genuine love of faith, while your book does not deny a history of church abuse which Christ would certainly not have endorsed to be perpetrated against any race?

K: Research, research, research. The stories of abuse within and without the church are horrifying, and Christ would not have us sweep such sins under a rug. There are evil people everywhere, just as there are good. Like in my other books, I go for a lesson learned. That is one of the key things I hope to convey in this story.

G: As pertains to the previous question, I will give one example that struck me.  You wrote a scene involving one Romani girl covertly reading a cherry vendor’s palm in a market.  Were the pains the characters took to not be noticed a reflection of the Catholic ruling that individuals whose fortunes were read by Roma would be forever excommunicate according to Papal law?

K: The scene was a picture of how careful both sides had to be in order to not find themselves on the wrong side of the law. English law did their part in keeping the cultures very separate. The pains taken to not be seen on both parts are best viewed separately. Papin, the Roma girl, has learned through experience which persons she can approach with her skills and attempt to trade said skills for goods. She risks exposure in order to gain food for her people. The cherry vendor is taken immediately by her good looks and cannot bring himself to step away from the opportunity to see what the Roma can tell him about his life by a quick glimpse at his hand. He risks being punished by church and law for doing such a thing, but calculates the risk and come to the personal conclusion that it was worth it.

G: Texas has a large Christian Romani population.  Do you plan to promote your book to them?

K: Given the opportunity to have the Christian Romani population in Texas support my book would be an honor, and I certainly hope that it will be approved by many. As I stated, my target audience is non-Roma, as it is meant to educate those who have no knowledge of the Roma’s history. The Romani population, I think, needs no education on such things from a book written by a non-Romani from the perspective of a Roma girl. It may even seem ridiculous to them to read such a thing, as they may feel they could write a more accurate portrayal of the time themselves. This was the opinion of one Roma I had review my book. And I have no doubt that most could offer details that I am still not knowledgeable of. But this book is about more than just the Roma’s oppression, though that is the biggest part of the story. It is about the Protestant church being oppressed as well. It is about a trafficking victim’s struggle. It is about the abuse those with disfigurements suffered when put on display in the traveling shows. It is about love and loss. So these things woven together will reach an audience who wants to learn about those particular years in that certain area of the UK, and hear a moving story as well. If any in the Christian Romani population have those things in mind while searching for a read, they may find my book enjoyable. I certainly hope they do! But to answer your question specifically, I intend to promote my book to any who would enjoy historical fiction hitting on those key things, regardless of ethnicity. I just predict that those most interested would be non-Roma.

G: After the story has ended, you encourage non-Romani Christians at the back of the book to reach out and support their Romani brethren.  What steps do you think churches today could take to make this happen?  Have you considered speaking at churches in your state regarding this issue of greater racial tolerance and understanding on the basis of true Christian doctrine?

K: I think Christians as individuals, not just churches, should first educate themselves on the plight of the Roma people and then ask God specifically to show them what He would have them to do. Whether that would be financially supporting the ministries that aid Roma children in getting a proper education, or forming/aiding other outreaches that extend love and the gospel to the Roma community, there are plenty of ways to get involved. Speaking on any platform, be it social media or a stage at church, can result in having a great influence. I do not consider myself a speaker, nor do I look for opportunities to speak publically. I am a writer and feel my voice is best read, not heard from a platform. However, given the opportunity to speak to a group in the past, I have not declined and if the chance to speak came, I can’t stay that I would automatically decline it due to my stage fright. I do feel that this is an area in which more non-Roma people should speak, especially those with public speaking skills.

G: When I encountered the advertisement for your book, the tag line referenced something to the effect of, “What is a Gypsy soul?”  When pointed out to you that this phrasing is a trigger for the Romani community and carries, for many of us, the implication of non-Roma being able to appropriate our culture/ become “Gypsies,” you changed your tag line to something else.  You also expressed your desire to speak to actual people from the Romani community, halting publication of your book, until it could be scrutinized by them in order to weed out cultural inaccuracies and linguistic glitches.  Why did you make this extreme gesture to wait for the approval of the minority that you are portraying?

K: Because my work was meant to help, not harm. I am not so naïve as to think that I will gain the approval of most Roma in writing this book. The majority is impossible to please in any crowd. My intent was to ensure that I got the facts as straight as possible, to make friends in the community, and to get insight into their hearts. I found that in doing so I bettered my book, but also expanded my own understanding of the modern Roma community. There is so much to be learned from them, and I hope to continue to learn how to better love and pray for them as a people.

All of my books are available at in both paperback and Kindle form.

Three Famous Romani Women…That No One Talks About

A year or two ago, while browsing in a Romani chat room online, I encountered a strain, started by and contributed to by a number of major Facebook Romani male activists, whose identities in considering the subsequent moral dilemma seem a bit on the irrelevant side.  In a word, the men were all veritably losing their mind with glee because they had learned that a major “Game of Thrones” star had identified themself publicly as a “Gypsy.”  They were debating how to contact said actor, how to get them to join up with various Romani rights groups as a representative, and just waxing poetic in general about how awesome it was that this particular individual turned out to be, as they say, “tatcho rat”—true blood.

Now, anyone who is Romani that actually bothers to do the slightest degree of research online might assume that they were referencing Oona Chaplin, the granddaughter of the legendary Romani actor and director, Charlie Chaplin.  On “Game of Thrones,” Ms. Chaplin played “Talisa Maegyr,” wife of “Robb Stark.”

But, oh no no.  These men knew nothing about the lovely Oona.  And when I pointed her presence out to them, they completely ignored it; completely ignored her.

The subject of their adoration was instead Jason Momoa, aka “Khal Drogo,” who had created an organization called “Pride of Gypsies.”

When you click on the website, the first thing which you read is:


“Pride (prid)-A group of lions forming a collective.

Gypsy (jip-see)-A nomadic or free-spirited person.

Pride of Gypsies was founded by Jason Momoa in 2010, a tribe of artists & filmmakers with an enthusiastic thirst for creating unique and inventive content, harnessing an atypical approach to production.

Cut from the old- letting light, sound, and movement tell the stories, our pursuit for magnificent adventures is infused with innovation and excellence that improves the human spirit.”


Mr. Momoa, however “free-spirited” he may find himself, is in no way Romani, but instead Hawaiian, Native American, German, and Irish.  I pointed this as well out to the Google-adverse men who were salivating over him, but just as they ignored Oona Chaplin, they now seemed determined to ignore the fact that Momoa wasn’t the real thing.

So what was it about Jason Momoa which blew Oona Chaplin so completely out of the water?  As these men kept referencing the TV show, let’s take a look at their characters….  Momoa plays a rape-advocating, slave-owning, gleefully-murdering warlord who sexually assaults his arranged marriage wife on several occasions.  (But, hey, that’s okay, because she supposed learns to enjoy sex with her marital rapist anyway.  Hurray for Stockholm syndrome!)  To film some of the rape scenes, Momoa was nude, but covered his genitalia with a plush, pink sock.  Chaplin, to the contrary, played a relatively virtuous character, who nurses the wounded after battle, and eventually marries one of the show’s nice guys.  Their sex is completely consensual.  Chaplin then winds up stabbed to death, while pregnant.  Chaplin was, like Momoa, nude for her role.  Momoa made jokes about his nakedness.  As for her own, Chaplin stated: “The objectification lies in the eye of the beholder, just like beauty.  I’m really comfortable getting my kit off, so, if they want to, I’m like, ‘yeah, bring it, I’m naked, no problem.’ ”

Well, for Oona, there may be no issue, but, judging by the stone-cold silence from the Romani activist crowd, who tend to be all too quick to cash in on one of our own making it big, there was a problem indeed.  Else a Gadjo (non-Rom) proclaiming himself a Gypsy wouldn’t take precedence over a woman from a well-respected English Romani bloodline.

But she’s not the only one who the community tends to shove into the back of the closet.

In 1985, “Return to Oz,” (based of the L Frank Baum book “Glenda of Oz,”) was filmed.  In this sequel, little Dorothy Gale finds herself yet again in a position where she must risk her life to both get home and save the magical kingdom from its current bad guy.  And who did the very-coveted role go to?  Eleven-year-old Romani actress, Fairuza Balk.

Balk would go on to play many major Hollywood roles in the 1980s and 1990s, such as Valmont’s “Cecile,” American History X’s “Stacey,” The Waterboy’s “Vicki Vallencourt,” and, likely her most famous role, “Nancy” from The Craft.  Today, she continues to act, as well as do artwork and blog.

But Romani activists, when they list the famous of Hollywood, almost always leave her out in the cold also.  Does it matter that the actress is not only very open about her heritage, but even has a triangle tattoo on her arm memorializing the Romani Holocaust?  Does it matter that she, at least at one point, used her fame to try to help raise awareness as well as funding for Romani rights by adding information and donation links to her website?

Apparently not.  And why might that be?  Well, well, it would appear that this Romani actress has also done nudity-included sex scenes.  Could it be that, regardless of her efforts to improve the lot of her people, her entitlement to control the portrayal of her own body on film simply overrides her other traits?

Perhaps that would be a question for Noomi Rapace, the Swedish actress of Spanish Romani descent who skyrocketed to worldwide fame for her portrayal of Lisbeth Salander in “The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.”  Rapace was repeatedly nude, via both rape and consensual sex, in this film and its two sequels.  Does it matter that the movies had to do with such themes as exposing incest, solving anti-Semitic murders, pointing out the potential for the exploitation of women by government officials, the lack of aid for women suffering domestic violence, and the rampancy of human trafficking?  My best guess is…”no.”

Because, at the end of the day, ours is not a culture that, for any reason besides her husband’s pleasure, a woman has the right to be naked.

Chaplin, Balk, and Rapace are not the stereotype of the “Good Romani Woman.”  Oh, to the contrary, they are very far from it.  And the community’s vast silence in their regard, spanning so many years, makes sure that they, as well as outsiders, know it. Sadly, very likely they will stay ignored, no matter what they might do in the future in order to better the condition of their people.  Because, however much culturally we, the Romani, are diversifying on the issue of women’s rights—the powers that be are often still ruling with an iron fist.  And nothing is so terrifying to such individuals as the independent Romani women who, bluntly put, don’t give a flying fuck about communal approval.

As I read recently, underneath a post about Giuvlipen, a Romani theatre group in Romania which promotes feminism and GLBT Romani rights, “real Romani women reject feminism.”

Well, feminism is not necessarily nudity, nor is nudity necessarily empowerment.  But forcing a system of values on a woman in order to control or contain her sexuality—values which she does not agree with—does not protect or elevate the concept of Romani womanhood or purity.  It reduces it to nothing but a commodity; a status which can be stripped away brutally.

There will be no advance of Romani rights while this behavior continues.  Because however much it hides beneath the claim of “morality,” the restriction of a woman’s right to do with her own body as she chooses, merely paves the path to many of the gender-based problems, including violence, that Romani women, like so many other women of color, disproportionately endure.

Oona Chaplin’s place among the ignored perhaps is the biggest symbol of this because there has likely never been in the last fifty years a list drawn up by any Romani male activist of famous Romani people without Charlie Chaplin’s name right at the top.  But dear old Charlie, however talented he was as a performer, absolutely epitomized the exact opposite of decent Romani living.  Point of fact, if he had ever been taken before an old-school Romani judgment tribunal, it’s almost impossible that he would not have been formally shunned.  He was a batterer, a sexual predator, a pedophile, a routine seducer that deliberately sought the company of White girls in opposition to fellow people of color, and, to boot, used his acting skills to portray caravan Roma onscreen as the kidnappers and violent abusers of White teenage girls.  Oh, yes, he’s known for spoofing Hitler in “The Little Dictator,” but if Romani people want a realistic view of him, it’s “The Vagabond,” filmed in 1916, which they need to take an honest look at.  If Oona Chaplin starred in a remake of the uber-racist, stereotype-spouting “The Vagabond,” what would happen to her, I wonder?  My best guess is that she’d be veritably roasted alive, yet, because Charlie was male, him making a living by throwing his fellow Roma under the bus is, much like Oona’s heritage, quietly ignored.

Last night, online, I encountered a non-Romani blogger’s list of Romani actresses.  It did showcase these three women.  My pleasure at seeing this was quickly overshadowed by a female Romani blogger making discriminatory responses, basically to the tune of how many of the women listed are simply not Romani enough to qualify as true Roma.  She implied that they capitalize on passing as White when, point of fact, not one of them has done this and two of them who could very well have hidden their identity went out of their way to showcase it.  This Romani female’s response did not surprise me.  Even though people know the real reason that these women are being excluded, it’s not considered acceptable by many to actually vocalize it.  It’s much easier, and certainly less embarrassing for the speaker, to cast aspersions on the basis of mixed heritage.

To which I respond: is your half-sister not still your sister?  Are not all the grandchildren of your grandparent still your cousins?  Even if the way they talk, dress, or conduct themselves is different from you, so long as they do not hurt anyone, do their differences completely eradicate the fact that blood is still blood?  If your position is that it does, perhaps that says more about your loyalty to your people than it does about theirs.

Chaplin, Balk, and Rapace each deserve the respect of being treated as a phen by their own people.  I pray sincerely that I am proved wrong and, in time, they receive it.

And to you, my brother activists, keep something in mind: if you claim to represent the Romani people—then that includes women too, even the ones who march to their own drums.  And if you automatically support the rights of a phral over a phen, then the reality is that you have true respect for neither gender.  By degrading the second, you bring shame to the first.

As for those entertainers who are not Romani, but use the word “Gypsy” in order to boost their notoriety—(shout out to you, Mr. Momoa!)—if ever it enters your head to call yourself a “Gypsy,” know this: that is privilege which, ethically, you do not have.  And it does create problems amongst the ethnic group who have been labeled with this word—a word, for the record—that a very large percentage of us consider a straight-up racial slur.  Don’t use it.